(no subject)

[kmo]

I thought this post, "The Silencing of Catelyn Stark" expressed perfectly many of the feelings I (and others) have had regarding how the tv writers have chosen to portray Catelyn's character. Catelyn isn't even my favorite, but I've been hurt by what I've seen as a dumbing down of her character. I also think she suffers from what others have termed the "Skyler White Effect"- where women (often wives and mothers) who stand up to the male anti-hero's fun anti-heroing (selling meth, being a serial killer, trying to become King in the North) are universally hated by fandom as shrews and wet blankets. Not just Catelyn and Skyler but also Carmela Soprano, Betty and Megan Draper, Rita from Dexter, even Kima from s5 of The Wire fall victim to this trope. Anywho, it's an interesting article and the comments are interesting, too. While I've really enjoyed the complexity GoT has brought to Margaery, Melisandre, Brienne, and Cersei, I feel like it often tends to fall back on cliched tropes as shorthand for telling a story- especially the whole mess in the Riverlands that is Robb, Catelyn and Talisa.

Help me procrastinate today with this Writing Process meme stolen from likeadeuce

Pick one of my fics and a question (or questions) and I'll tell you:
1. What part was most difficult?
2. What are you most proud of?
3. What's a reference you made no one has picked up on yet?
4. What's a bit that sums up your take on a character?
5. Favorite line(s) of dialogue?
6. Favorite lines(s) of prose?
7. Were there any points where you were trying to do something specific with sound, vocabulary, or rhythm?
8. How many drafts did the work go through?
9. Were you listening to anything while writing the fic? If so, what?
10. Imagery that is important to the fic, either while composing or in the fic itself?
11. What were you most worried about during the composition?
12. How do you want readers to react to this fic?
13. What did you want them to take away from it?
14. What inspired this fic?
15. If you used a beta, what did you agree or disagree on?
16. Did anything surprise you during the writing?
17. Were any parts written under the influence Unless coffee counts, I never drink and write!

Comments

[likeadeuce]

I'll have to bookmark that article b/c I have never really understood the complaints about Catelyn's characterization on the show. Though I would admit that probably has to do w/ not remembering much of anything about her chapters in the books.

Meme wise: for the Edith writes mystery novels, story, 3 & 14.

[kmo]

i think it's not just how Catelyn has been portrayed on her own, but in conjunction with Robb, especially re: the freeing of Jaime. in the books, Cat & Robb make tactical errors (freeing Jaime, marrying Jayne)in this moment of extreme rage and grief when they think Bran & Rickon are dead. they both fuck up, but forgive the other for it and move on as a unit. on tv, it was mostly portrayed as "Cat fucked up everything for Robb! poor bb Robb!" but i think the RW episode did something to pull the focus back to Cat.

#3- reference no one has picked up on: a few people caught on to the obvious parallels between Edith's detective hero and Lord Peter Wimsey, but i don't think anyone has figured out that Edith's desire to buy a flat is a subtle shout out to Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own uh, I think Mary's advice might also be sort of inspired by He's Just Not That Into You filtered through a 1920s lens.

#14- what inspired this fic: well aside from my recip wanting Edith writing or Mary becoming a widow and mom (i gave them both!), a lot was inspired by convos on DA with fellow lady historian fans of the show. we always felt like Sibyl should move to Bloomsbury and start writing novels....and then s3 happened *sad face* but it still seems like Edith might fulfill our lady novelist ambitions! we also have always collectively wondered why Edith's current love interest is her married editor. like, didn't she meet a bunch of eligible young men of her social class who recuperated at Downton during the war? she seemed well liked by the soldiers- surely one of them must have had a thing for her.

i also wanted a chance for Edith and Mary to reconcile a bit. and for Mary to dispense some tough love to Edith. because as much as sometimes i feel sorry for Edith, i think she also is a product of her own choices and expectations. i say this as someone who used to chase after inappropriate men and women myself. :)

[likeadeuce]

Cat & Robb make tactical errors (freeing Jaime, marrying Jayne)in this moment of extreme rage and grief when they think Bran & Rickon are dead. they both fuck up, but forgive the other for it and move on as a unit. on tv, it was mostly portrayed as "Cat fucked up everything for Robb! poor bb Robb!"

I didn't personally get that out of either the book or the show (partly b/c I thought Catelyn was overall a poor POV choice for those sections of the book and that Robb's story needed to be strengthened), but I'm not really equipped to argue canon points.

but i think the RW episode did something to pull the focus back to Cat.

There I agree; I thought they served her well in the end (I realize the linked article was written before that ep aired.)

Re: Edith I love the insights about Woolf and Sayers and 'He's not that into you' and the discussion of women in history all coming together to inform this story. Thanks for sharing.

[kmo]

b/c I thought Catelyn was overall a poor POV choice for those sections of the book and that Robb's story needed to be strengthened

it's weird for me to be coming to Cat's defense, because i never really enjoyed her POV as much as others. (that might change if i do a re-read at some point) and i think the reason Cat's POV feels off is because GRRM purposefully subverts the readers expectation of where the focus should be. we feel like the focus should be on Robb, the boy-savior king, who is the "natural" fantasy protagonist....instead it's on his mom. i think my issue is that GRRM and Vince Gilligan and other creators say they are trying to do something different by giving a mother or wife's perspective but the execution IMO leaves something to be desired.

hey, thanks for asking! i originally wanted to work "room of one's own" somehow into the title, but i just couldn't make it work

[likeadeuce]

Hah, yeah, I'm just like, "They reduced Catelyn's role? How could you tell?" Since my issues are more with the original.

I do wonder if it has something to do w/ Catelyn not interacting with other women b/c the only stuff that stands out to me about her in the novel is related to Brienne.

I do wonder if maybe the show is not that good at relationships b/t adult men & women that don't have some kind of romantic or sexual angle. (See both Jaime/Brienne and Arya/Gendry feeling more straightforwardly shippy on the show). But I might be reaching.

[kmo]

i think the show definitely wants to sandwich in romance, even if it doesn't necessarily belong there. (see Talisa) and the thing is...these are just not conventionally romantic novels. i think Jaime & Brienne are the most romantic pairing in the series...and they aren't even officially together as of book 5.

heh, i blame the Arya/Gendry shipping on the actor having like the most amazing set of abs.

[aptasi]

For the meme

1,5,7. Anywhere Out of the World

[kmo]

thank you for playing! :) wow this one kind of takes me back!

#1- what was most difficult:
i really get stuck when it comes to transitional chapters and parts of the stories. i can get really hung up. it's like i hit a wall. so chapter 6, when Carmen is staking out the National Gallery was really hard to write. it was also hard to make her deduction seem plausible.

#5- favorite dialogue
i'm really fond of this dialogue between Suhara and Carmen at the end of chapter one:

"Is it danger that you seek? Or escape?"

Carmen said nothing. Her heart pounded in her chest, pulsing red. Both.

I also love the last line. Perfect last words.

#7- sound, vocabulary, etc:
i'm not super conscious about this all the time. but in this sentence from chapter 7, i used the alteration and repeated G and E sounds to try to evoke a dream-like state, almost like Carmen really was floating on air.

"Carmen glided along the empty hallways and exhibit rooms with a ghostly grace."

there are also frequent references to the color red in almost every chapter. i also used words like "nobody" and "nowhere" and "somebody" and "somewhere" to subtly play with the title.

[netgirl_y2k]

While the portrayal of Cat has been irking me (the first time I read the books Cat was easily my favourite character, and going from just the show it would be difficult to explain why) but I've been hesitant to use it an example of the show having a woman problem because from 1x10 to the Red Wedding that entire plot line was such a clusterfuck that it often seemed like Cat just got lost in the general carnage and rubbishness.

Sell Your Cleverness, 4 & 12?

[kmo]

yeah, i wouldn't go so far as to say that all portrayals of women are problematic- because the show has done such wonderful things for Shae, Cersei, Margaery, Melisandre, who come off as very 2 dimensional in the books. so i think GoT has a Cat & Robb problem. Also a nameless whore problem...but every HBO show seems to have that. seriously, they all seem to find a reason for someone to own a strip club or brothel into every single one of their dramas!

yay, thanks for asking!
#4- What's a bit that sums up your take on a character?
ooof, it is hard to pick just one thing, but the moment where Melisande realizes Phedre's gambit and "yields" rather than push onward is I think a turning point for her character in that moment. She will not let Phedre manipulate her into being crueler than she needs to be, will not allow Phedre to put her in the same category as the Mahrkagir- even if she would once have gladly gone further in the absence of Phedre's signale. And the decision to be merciful there is truly hard for her, but Melisande is capable of change. And she will never do what you expect of her. ;)

#12- How do you want readers to react to this fic?
I guess I want readers to walk away feeling like it's plausible for these characters, like it really could have happened between these characters, even if they aren't rabid Phedre/Melisande shippers like me. I want people to say "Hey, why didn't Jacqueline Carey write that scene?" And even though i like this ship *a lot* there's a lot of baggage between these two ladies, and i don't want it to seem like i've given anyone a pass.